Monday, September 20, 2010

Torture and Liberty Don't Belong Together

Gerald Field is no career leftist.   Although he did support Barack  Obama for President before the 2008 elections, he previously served under President Ronald Reagan as Solicitor General.  He is also a Harvard Professor of Law and knows a thing or two about the Constitution. A book he wrote with his son Gregory, a philosopher and chairman of that department at Suffolk university, recently wrote:   "Because it is Wrong: Torture, Privacy and Presidential Power in the Age of Terror," 

Although I haven't read the book yet, interviews with the Frieds  make clear its central thesis--that it is wrong to torture a person to any degree, under any circumstances and for any reason.

The Frieds note that the Constitution says government surveillance — essentially a search — is wrong, but only if it is unreasonable or conducted without a warrant. As Fried points out below, there is no power of torture laid out in the Constitution, despite the twisted logic of Bush Justice Department lawyers like John Woo and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, both of whom approved of "waterboarding" suspects under the guise of fighting terrorists.   

Editorial excerpt below from The Medford (Oregon) Mail Tribune, Sept. 13, 2010:


"As Charles Fried said in an interview on National Public Radio, "that immediately shows there's a difference, because you can have reasonable snooping. You can have snooping pursuant to a warrant. I don't care what kind of a warrant you have, you can't torture and there is no such thing as reasonable torture."

His son Gregory agreed: "... I think it's essential to our identity as a nation that we hold to this absolute among others, that torture is one of the things that a democratic republic must not do in order to retain its character."

Charles Fried cited figures from American history who echoed that sentiment: "Washington said treat those captured in the battle with humanity and let them have no reason to complain over our copying the brutal example of the British army. Lincoln said military necessity does not admit of cruelty that is the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions."

America's stature in the world owes much to its Constitution, a document that protects the rights of individuals from the actions of their own government. Americans should ask themselves what that great tradition is worth if our government takes away the rights of others in the interest of our own security."


If The United States is supposed to stand for something greater then just a territory or a brute force of Hegalian Statism--and I believe that is why we were conceived as a nation-- we should heed these mens' words well.  

29 comments:

  1. Torture does in no manner does go hand in hand with liberty Doug. Yet I think that this did happen for years within the military we just were just not within an information age where things could be brought up and uncovered by the means that we do have now. Yet that does not make it right.
    I am looking forward to Tony Blair's new book, called, "A Journey".

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  2. "If The United States is supposed to stand for something greater then just a territory or a brute force of Hegalian Statism--and I believe that is why we were conceived as a nation-- we should heed these mens' words well. "


    this is very important--




    "America's stature in the world owes much to its Constitution, a document that protects the rights of individuals from the actions of their own government. Americans should ask themselves what that great tradition is worth if our government takes away the rights of others in the interest of our own security."


    this is the ultimate question and for someone to make a blaket statement that the military has always done torture is insane and stupid

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  3. I agree, torture in any degree is wrong. Period. And farming it out for other countries to do doesn't make

    it right or any less wrong. We have no business being in the torture business, but no one is listening.

    Thanks, Doug.

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  4. I have no doubt it has happened in all of America's wars, and those of others, Jack. But as this brief editorial I drew form points out, it was not the case that America's leaders themselves approved of it and sanctioned it, as was the case in this last decade.

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  5. I think there has been some random cases of torture in the past, Heidit--on the battlefield, in the heat of war.

    But it was NOT condoned by our leaders, nor were "black ops" sites established all over the world. I think that's the distinction the Bush Administration holds.

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  6. Yes, we sweep it under the rug, Jacquie, then wonder later on why so many people abroad don't like Americans--and I'm not, obviously, just referring to Muslims.

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  7. totaly agree with you --I come from a family of military and all were officers and none of them would ever condone
    yes in time of war we must be careful what is torture nd what isn't--

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  8. Doug, this, as far as I'm concerned, is the Original Fact - the Constitution and our willingness to follow it both as guide and standard is what sets us apart from every other tin-pot dictatorship in the world.

    Hegelian statism, indeed....

    (Good post, Doug - dang good post....)

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  9. Doug it's happened here as well. Yeah I do know what your saying here Doug. It's happened within Canada as well and just recently there have been some national stories with regards to some things that have taken place within Afganastan. There are several thoughts and ideas that come up within this. In most cases there was a breach of protocol and things were done and as time passes we are seemingly starting to see more and more of what was. I do get you there Doug.

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  10. I'm sure 99 percent of the officers wouldn't, Heidi. And we owe those who serve honorably and their families a great debt.

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  11. Yes, Will, without respect and adherence to the basics of the Constitution we might as well be a tin-pot nation. Thanks.

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  12. No national armed force in another country is perfect, but what worries me is when codification of torture takes place as it did in America's White House. When you take helpless people off a battlefield and chain them up and torment them or threaten and injure them seriously, you more readily become what you are fighting not to become.

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  13. Doug, as you know I am home with my legs here after yesterday may I ask why do you think the nation is a tin pot one - I am trying to get the jest of all of this as it's very thought provoking. If you have time...

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  14. this torture thing sadly seems to be getting to be the "kool thing" to do now days..Hollywood has picked up on it in many shows and is presenting it as a brave glamours practice...one thing that should be remembered...any coward can torture a prisoner.

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  15. Sure, Jack--all I'm saying is that we need to elect people who respect the spirit of the Constitution to avoid becoming a tin-pot country like Burma or Saudi Arabia that practices such garbage--nor should we rendition people to countries that practice torture. That's all I mean.

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  16. Exactly Mike, and the movies and shows like "24" have done us a grave disservice by making it "kool" and playing to the emotions of people's worst reptilian instincts.

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  17. Why has it taken a change of government for people like these to speak out I wonder?

    I have said for years, and been castigated by certain right wing (it has to be said sadly) Americans for doing so, that the land of the free does it's self no favours in carrying out such barbarism. The rest of the world demands that the only super power on the planet should have the highest ethical standards in all it's dealings and especialy when dealing with the weakest.

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  18. Before I read all the comments, I found a link to my blog in 2009 with some interesting information in it.
    http://scootch2.multiply.com/journal/item/97/BIG_TORTURE_BREAKTHROUGH
    It's information about those who authorized these bizarre crimes & 'my' country will never hold them responsible. But the world community has.
    I can't imagine how any country could not disrespect/hate us for this unless we have the decency to prosecute these war criminals.

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  19. In my link:
    "There are still crucial sets of memos that must be revealed, including the infamous Bybee and Bradbury memos.

    The first, written in August 2002 by the head of the Bush administration's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), Jay S. Bybee, was the cornerstone of the CIA torture program.

    The second set of memos, written by OLC lawyer Steven Bradbury in May of 2005, authorized the CIA to subject prisoners to torture methods including waterboarding. They were written in anticipation of Congress’s decision to make it clear that laws against cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment applied to the CIA.

    Collectively, these memos supplied the framework for an interrogation program that permitted the most barbaric forms of abuse, violated domestic and international law, alienated America's allies and yielded information that was both unreliable and unusable in court.

    Using national security as a pretext, the Bush administration managed to suppress these memos for years. If these memos are released on April 16, it will be due to your consistent support of the ACLU. And the facts revealed in these memos will only heighten the demand for a thorough criminal investigation."

    Have these memos ever been released?

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  20. "The Frieds note that the Constitution says government surveillance — essentially a search — is wrong, but only if it is unreasonable or conducted without a warrant. "

    The underlined is what The Patriot Act allows. The Patriot Act is unconstitutional, yet some on Multiply have praised it. Just another worm in the can of worms in the Bush administration.

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  21. Torture makes no sense from an ethical or strategic standpoint, Jim, and is the best tool for recruiting enemies against America.

    Why it took so long to change matters rests with the power of fear in high government agencies and the impulses of men like our former rat-ass VP Dick Cheney and his hold over a President who was out of his depth who understood little about foreign affairs.
    But no one of serious rank has ever been punished for what happened at Abu Gahib or Guantanamo and the budgets of the intellligence "black ops" boys kept getting bigger.

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  22. Thanks for linking this to my site Lucija. Suffice to say there are certain ex-officials who need to be held to account.

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  23. Laws made in haste after the country is suffering a shock like 9/11 can reap bad results. With the Supreme Court tilted the way it is, and Obama fenced in by a bad economy, I' m not sure what is going to get done rectify things until some years pass.

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  24. It appears they have Jacquie, but it also appears that much is still classified and no one high up in Bush's DOJ has been put in jail.

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  25. Hey, sweetie, scootch is Lucija!

    "Most Guantanamo detainees are innocent: ex-Bush official Mar 20, '09 2:41 PM
    for lucija's friends and lucija's online buddies

    Oops, I lost the link. With an issue as serious as this, I don't think there's such a thing as too much information, so I'm clogging your blog. *Grin* I believe that in this article, it's stated that innocent men were held as long as seven years.
    I'll "be beck" as our infamous California governor says.

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  26. I'm sorry for that name mix-up Lucija. *red faced*

    Good article on your link below. We still haven't a President and a Congress to close "Gitmo", but I would hope the release process of people held without serious evidence has been completed.

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  27. It's okay! Just teasing you.

    Regarding release, I'd like to look that up. I certainly hope so, too.

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